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Tom you used the term “crime against humanity”, could you elaborate on that?
Yes well, I think that, I think it was a crime against humanity. I don’t think any human should use atomic weapons or nuclear weapons against any other humans. And the sadness about it is that so many people think that they should have a right
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to do it. The more I myself understand the implications of nuclear war and nuclear sickness, I’ve been very firmly against it. But I’m against the nuclear industry as a whole because, I don’t know if you know much about the Fox Inquiry into uranium mining in the Northern
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Territory, particularly in Kakadu National Park. And their third recommendation was, the nuclear industry, used the word “unintentionally” to soften it. Increase the risk of nuclear war - this is the most serious aspect of the industry. And of course, that’s proven so true but….you know, when you think about, I saw, I was at 80
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kilometres when I saw the nuclear weapons exploded over Nagasaki. The bombs that would, that they could explode today would incinerate, 80 kilometres away. So you just see the power that’s involved. The sad thing about it is we don’t know what to do with all the nuclear waste. I mean we don’t know how to decommission even nuclear power stations.
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I mean these are so… oh we’ll find a solution but we’ve lived too many years to find solutions. For instance, when I came back from the war you know, I thought about it but particularly after 60 I was more convinced ever than before that they should have never used the nuclear weapons.
This is after 1960?
1960 yes.
What happened in 1960?
1960 I
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went to Japan against the 6th World Conference Against Nuclear - Atomic and Nuclear Weapons. And I saw there at Hiroshima - first of all I saw the model, explaining how so many people drowned because they were burnt at the time and they dived in. I’ve seen the scars on women’s bodies, I’ve seen the imprint
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printed onto the backs of women. I’ve seen the genetic effects and biological effects. I’ve seen the atomic sickness and, so far as I’m concerned I think it’s just madness there ever be such a war. And of course, there were people in the United States, the more you read about the struggle that went on amongst the scientists - why they never should have dropped the bomb. But
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in some cases I don’t think they had the confidence with themselves that if they put an experimental program there, they’re frightened that may have not been successful. That might have been one issue. But generally, I think it was the… Burn who was the Secretary of State to Truman that was very, mainly responsible
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for convincing Truman that it should occur. I just don’t know what the outcome’s going to be in the longer term, because there are elements in the United States now that I think would use nuclear weapons against some people. Particularly if you’re not white.
I’d like to get back to the nuclear issue just a little later if there is time.
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Once the bomb had gone off over Nagasaki, what happened to you and your particular camp at that point?
Well, they allowed - first of all the food came down through parachutes. Then of course, I told you I was created ground marshall for a week, and I couldn’t stay any longer after that because we found out that, they were shipping
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and freight into Kogashima and taking out - would be prepared to take out people in the bomb racks. And so I thought, I was about to go and then I got malaria and that delayed several days. But Babe Daniels and Jock Cowie and most of my mates they went ahead - I convinced them of that. But I went with a group of Americans. And we got down as far as the bridge that goes over to
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- couldn’t go any further on the train.
Sorry the bridge that goes to…?
Oh look, I’m not sure where, but there was a bridge short of Kogashima and we couldn’t go any further on the train so we got out there and then got in - commandeered a truck - drove - the war was over and as a matter of fact we’d become giants overnight. They just did whatever we told them.
The Japanese did?
Yeah. Oh, just obeyed completely.
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And, the first time I spotted an American I thought they were men from Mars. First of all, had a different type of helmet on, you know, not the tommy helmet, had different type of helmet on. They were all yellow because of this Atebrin - the drug. And I just, you know, I really thought they were from another planet. So anyway,
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we get down there and we… they started looking after us and giving us food and - generous they were. And there’s no doubt about it, the Americans are a very generous - when they’ve got it they’re very generous with it. If you’d come from where I’d been, with people, on the whole, with Americans that’d cringe and sell their own mate to make a bit of progress.
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So that was a relief and we had this argument the first night we were there. About…they kept on saying,“Our navy did this, our navy did that, the greatest navy in the world.” And I just said, “God, you and everybody knows what the greatest navy is in the world - it’s the British Navy.” And I suppose I had to eat my own words as time went on because there’s no doubt about it,
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the navy. So anyway, we got out and I got out of Kogashima - I was in the bomb rack of a B17. And when we first flew over, Okinawa it was really a city of lights we thought, but it wasn’t - it was all ships. The following
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morning when we left we saw what they’d done. They’d stripped the airstrips, they’d made - look you couldn’t help but bloody marvel at the ingenuity of them in such a short period of time. And you could see the whole fleet, the mass of lights that were all - they were ships in the bay.
So you’re talking about the American occupation forces?
Yes, yes, they’re all ready to go - of course they were ready to go to Japan.
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I must say, one of the interesting things was they had a, what do you call it, Red Cross Hut. And you could go in there and you could take anything you wanted. Like any type of food there, it was all laid out. So I got a pair of Yankee overalls and put these on. And tied a piece of rope around my waist, and I didn’t
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want the cigarettes or cigars or anything else. All I did was fill it up with Hershey chocolate bars. So then we headed from there. As I say, when we went over, flew over in the morning and saw what they’d done to Naga - you couldn’t help but take your hat off to the ingenuity of the Americans.
Now before you left Japan I believe you visited Nagasaki?
No, no no.
You didn’t actually
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visit Nagasaki?
No, I did not go to Nagasaki. In fact we would’ve been kept out of Nagasaki, that’s why they couldn’t take us because we had to wait until they decontaminated, or waited for a while. I think it was 3, 2 weeks to 3 weeks before we could have gone out of there. See I didn’t - I hitch hiked out of Japan through Kogashima and then got to Okinawa and then to… Okinawa and then they flew out of Okinawa down to Clark Field in
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the Philippines. And I was there for 3 months, for 30 days. And by the time I left, I was about 10 stone when I got released, and by the time I left Clark Field I was over 14 stone. And we went out via the HMS Formidable. It was a stripped down aircraft carrier that was specially
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for us, treated for us. And it was, it was quite a treat. While we were in Manila they issued us with so many cigarettes, so many cigars and so many of this and that, every day. And of course, by this time, I’d got the grape vine that things like that were short at home or were hard to get, so I started to take my
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ration of cigarettes and cigars and what have you, to bring them home. So no, that Clark Field - I only went into Manila once in the 30 days I was there. But she was pretty well shot up and I didn’t, I wasn’t attracted to it so I hopped home again.
You referred to being rather startled to see the yellow faces of the Atebrin affected Americans, had you at the early stage of the war
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been taking Atebrin at all?
No. No Atebrin at all.
It was not available at that time?
No, no it wasn’t available. We were on quinine.
When quinine was available how effective was that as a deterrent?
Well, that was - not a deterrent - you’d only get it when you got malaria.
So it wasn’t a preventative?
No, no.
So we’ve covered your journey and trip
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along through the heads and along Parramatta Road etcetera?
That next year I was treated for a lot of recurring malaria, matter of fact my doctor said, “Why don’t you knock off doing any sport or anything for a year.” So I stopped doing anything for a year, just to recuperate.
Must have been difficult?
Yeah, it was because I wanted to get -
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And of course, when I started to - I had some fights by the way, a couple of times. So I decided to go to England - that’s when I decided to go to England.
Now we’ve covered your journey up Parramatta Road but I don’t think we’ve talked about the reunion with your family?
No.
Can you talk about that?
No, it was just wonderful and of course, Babe’s family was there - Babe Daniel’s family was there and also mine, my mother,
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father and everyone was there. So that was a great homecoming. The Daniels lived at Lidcombe and I went home to stay with my Aunty Mary who lived in Five Dock. And there was a reception there of the Uren-Miller clan welcoming me back to the fold and that was lovely and gentle and I felt
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Everybody… I met my brother Jack and my mother and father, and what have you. The only person I hadn’t met was Les, my younger brother. And he was up in Mount Morgan. So I got a special dispensation - they flew me by aircraft from Sydney, in a DC 4.
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No lining or anything. You froze in the DC 4 except for blankets, and what have you. And I went to Brisbane, and from Brisbane I then went by train up to Mount Morgan. And the, because I was travelling on the train, at every stop the welcoming committee would welcome me as though I’m returning home. So they,
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it was just so spontaneous, the people, that love and the warmth and affection they had for the returning veterans.
I mean it must have made a particular impact on your family to see you again?
Yeah, it was good for me too, although I was fairly - I don’t know the words - fairly deep, you know. And I’m not an island but I
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felt - I was a bit of an island at that time.
Can you explain that a little bit further?
Well, I wanted to be near the family and yet I wanted to be alone. And I suppose in a way, I had greater affection for my young brother Les and that’s why I went on this long journey up to see him. And then when I came back
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and of course, time was getting on. And I lived the first few months with the Daniel family. My mother and family lived in Port Kembla, Wollongong, and I didn’t want to go down there. I would visit them there but I didn’t want to live there. So I stayed with the Daniels in Charles Street, Lidcombe. And then
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the clan the whole group, there was a group of our people like, Billy Dirks, Babe Daniels, Sid Iron and Bill Palmer of course, they were all down at a place called - a holiday home, the Palmer family down at Illawarra South. And I’d been in, I had to go back to hospital
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in Merrylands - there was a naval hospital - it was formerly an American Naval Hospital and the Australian Army took it over in a park, they called it Granville Park but it’s at Merrylands. And that’s where I spent the first Christmas, coming back in with another attack of malaria.
Now just to pick up on something you said a moment ago - you said that when you first came back you wanted to be alone, why was that?
Well I suppose I had to readjust myself to life
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and I don’t know, I just wanted to…As I say I’m not a person who… I like my own privacy but I’m not a… I’ve only met one human being either that’s an island to himself and that’s Cairns. Cairns can live without anybody. I couldn’t, I need
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warmth and companionship.
Now I believe when you were in one of the prison camps, there was a photograph being passed around of this young woman that you became fairly impressed with. Could you tell us that story?
Yes, well what happened was that Billy Palmer had shown me a photograph of his sister. And she struck a note with me right away and… So when,
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so I was just saying to you, after this Christmas I was in hospital and I’d just come out. And they sent me a telegram, “Look we’re all down at Lake Illawarra South, come down.” And so, I’m not sure whether I sent a telegram back or rang or something - I think a telegram back about was - no I must’ve spoke
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on the phone - is Patty Palmer - is anybody, you know, keeping company with Patty Palmer? And so it was, “Come on come down.” So anyway I went down and I found out they were all sweet on her.
Sorry could you just clarify who actually said I’m keeping company
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with Patty Palmer? Was this you at this stage?
Yeah I said, I just said, “Is anybody keeping company with Patty Palmer?” And they just said, ignored that and said, “Come down.” You see so, when I got down there I found that they were all sweet on her. And I didn’t think I was making much progress either. But we had a Christmas,
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a New Year’s Eve dance and I’ve never been a good dancer. And there was a bit of a waltz. And anyway, I’m as tense as hell, dancing with Patty so, I hold her - I’m holding her. When she finishes the dance she says, “Do you think I can have my wrist back now.” Because I more or less was so tense I’d just kind of stolen her circulation. So I said well -
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then it was of course, the New Year’s Eve when everybody kisses one another, you see. And I kissed her and there wasn’t much response there so I thought, “Oh Uren you’ve got no chance with Patty.” So on New Year’s Day she had to go back to work and so did her aunt Macy, and we caught this train up from Wollongong
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up to Sydney. In those days it could take about 2 hours to do it. And it was the fastest 2 hours I ever had in my life. And I just talked my head off with Patty. And she spoke with me and so, we seemed to be getting on well together. So I asked her, you know, “Could I call and visit her?” And she said, “Yes.” It was arranged that I come out for a meal a couple of nights after that.
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So I went out and when I went out I bought her 4 yards of nice, lovely blue material for a woman to make a dress, because I had plenty of coupons and I didn’t give it to Patty, I gave it to the mother. So that was - so I was looking after my mother-in-law first of all. But from there on we never stopped seeing each other. And we became engaged on the 8th
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February, 1946. And then we never married until - we had a long - one of the requests of the father was, that it still be a long - a fairly long engagement. It was March of 1947 we were married. And she was, ‘cause she grew - she was quite a remarkable human being.
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In what way?
Well, in so many ways - she kind of - as she grew older - that inner beauty continued to grow and she was a very handsome woman too. And we were very close. When I couldn’t produce a child, I went through all the process of finding out whether or not I - what was wrong with me. And I went back to my old POW doctors again,
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first of all. Arthur Ewan Corlette then, he sent me to Moon and then Moon sent me to Professor Telfer. Neither, any 3 of them wouldn’t take any money from me. Telfer got drugs for me. And - I’m always mixing Christina and Patricia up. And I would say to Christine
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“Patricia.” And she’d, “No I’m Christine.” Well anyway my beautiful Patricia, she would put the hormones jab in, “Which one? Where will it go this time?” And we used to laugh about that. But with all the modern hormonal treatment I never, I couldn’t produce - I had further tests. So we decided to set about adopting. And it was 5 years for the boy and 7 years for
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the girl, we waited. And we got the boy in 1959 and our daughter came along in ’61. And they’ve been good kids. I think I was a good father until the time I became a Shadow Minister and probably didn’t spend as much time
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from then on. But even then, even before that I was still a fairly national politician. Of course, I was in the anti-war movement and peace movement and all that.
How early on did you become involved in the anti-war movement?
My first anti-war rally was Melbourne conference of 1959. And I’ve been a
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collective part of that anti-war movement ever since.
What got you involved in the anti-war movement?
Well Cairns asked me to involve myself in it. And I was always anti-war but not a part of the collective war movement.
So obviously you’ve gone on quite a journey between 1939 when you’d enlisted and 1959?
Yeah.
Apart from Jim Cairns’ advocacy
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what had changed your opinion of war?
Well, first of all, you know, I had my process of trying to become one of the great fighters of the world, professionally. I did that and that was ’48 and I got back in, nearly ’49. I really went in ’47 but it was… Anyway
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when I got back it was just before the great coal strike of ’49. And ultimately I’d been working on - sorry I’m getting ahead of myself. I worked for a year as a rubber millman, at Goodyear Tyre and Rubber Company. But all the time I was applying for jobs. And so it was ’47 and ’48 I was in England.
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And when I was at… Anyway I kept applying for these jobs and eventually I got a start with Woolworths as a trainee. And it was just before the great coal strike because I was cleaning windows. You had to go all the processes and one of my mates said, “Jesus Tom, things aren’t that bloody bad are they?” And I said, “Oh mate only a trainee here.” So anyway, I did very well with Woolworths
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and they were very good to me too. And I was only there with them, about 21 months when they made me a manager of Lithgow. And of course, Lithgow was a great turning point in my life because I had never joined the Labor Party. I arrived in April and Chifley died in the middle of the year and I went to his funeral and it was at his funeral I met one of my former prisoners of war,
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Viv Gordon who’d been a coal miner. And I had never had a car. I think we went up by bus and we were on the same bus and that’s how I joined the Labor Party through Viv. And of course, where I got great joy out of being in Woolworths and I was a Woolworths manager in Lithgow for 4 years. But in the split of the party
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I wanted to come back to Sydney, and of course I did. And remained a manager of Woolworths, opened Merrylands store. But ultimately what I was doing to get my political freedom, I’d brought a block of land and I was building two shops. One a general store and the other one a butcher shop, to get political independence because - on one interview
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with the General Manager of New South Wales branch, Bill Nash. He said, “Do you know Tom,” he said, “you’ve got a great future in Woolworths. But for one thing.” And I said, “Yes, politics.” And so I said, “Well Mr Nash, I don’t - I’m no Jesus Christ.
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“But if I believe in something, I’m going to get up and I’m going to say what I believe in. I’m going to do what I believe in.” And you know, the old fellow said, “Well Tom”, he said, “we’ve got plenty of Libs working for the company. We can have a good Labor man.” So he wanted to keep me. But anyway, eventually I,
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actually it was the last - that was one of the last meetings because he had heart turns after that and I never saw him again. But ultimately I knew what I wanted to do. Wanted to get out of the company and start afresh now. That period from - I think it was around about 1956 - it was the year that I had the store - a lot of pre-selections were on.
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Until I’d won the pre-selection they were very tough years. Very difficult for small business people to succeed, and I learnt all the difficulties of that - small business. But ultimately there were about 6 people opposed to the split at that time and I’m the only one that broke through - I bet Charlie Morgan who’d been a member for 15 years.
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The split, are you referring to the ALP [Australian Labor Party] /DLP [Democratic Labor Party] split?
No before - which created the DLP.
Which created the DLP. You’re referring to the original split?
Yes. And so I won the pre-selection. And then of course in the ’58 elections Morgan ran against me as a Independent and I was successful in defeating him and
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I got in on preferences. I won by 13,000.
Just to return to this question that I asked a couple of minutes ago, about what developed your anti-war stance apart from Jim Cairns recommending that you come in on the platform with him on that. Were there any other thoughts or experiences in the post war decade or so?
No, just my own personal experience. For instance, when I ran for the general election in 1958
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they were questioning me about - wanting me to sign certain documents on behalf of the peace movement. And I said, “No I’m not going to sign any document.” But I committed myself to do certain things and I stood fast on that. Anyway I won the - I was successful,l and as I say
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then when I went into the caucus, Cairns and I had become close. What happened with Cairns which drew me to Cairns - I saw an article by Alan Read in which it said, “The young doc had challenged the old doc.” It was over immigration policy. The Labor party brought forward a policy where there was to be 60% Europeans
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and 40% non European. I’m sorry, 60% British and 40% Europeans. Now this is before - still White Australia Policy. And so Cairns argued that, the Southern Europeans, you know, you didn’t want Catholics, the Southern Europeans. And consequently Cairns arguing and saying
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that the Southern Europeans were economically Labor supporters. And that logic was sound with me. And that was the bridge that started between Cairns and myself. But from the first day we became very, very close, very close. And there were times when things were tough and we’d say, thank Christ
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we’ve got each other.
I’m quite tempted to follow that line but I also know that you covered it in quite considerable detail in the Australian Biography Documentary, so I’ll resist that temptation for the moment unless we have time later. I just wanted to look at your view as an ex-soldier of your achievement during World
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War Two and what you’d been through. I mean for instance did you become a member of any Veteran’s association?
For a short while I was a member of the RSL but only a very short while. I really resented the sectarian position of the RSL.
I didn’t realise that the RSL had a sectarian position?
Oh yes. Sectarian in that they - they were very pro war - and
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well, I suppose sectional really, I suppose, more than sectarian.
When we say sectarianism I automatically think of Catholic and Protestant.
Oh no. You can be sectarian but - on a political basis - it’s not only on a religious basis.
So what was the RSL’s
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attitude to war which so…?
Well everything was pro communist or you know, that if you weren’t - if you just sneezed the wrong way - even old Bill Yeo who was one of the better elements - generally they weren’t as bad - Bill Yeo wasn’t as bad as what’s his - Ruxton.
Bruce Ruxton. But I mean at -
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so for how many years did you belong to the RSL?
Oh, wouldn’t be any more than a year at the most.
And was there any particular event that led to your…?
No, I just withdrew from them because - I actually was a part of Legacy for nearly - over 4 years. The whole time I was at Lithgow I was a part of Legacy but I wasn’t even a part of the RSL, even in those days.
But in
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trying to explain the sectarianism of the RSL a few moments we suddenly were covering a lot of bases. Could you sum up what it was about the RSL that you..?
Well they took - can I say they took an ultra conservative position in my view and I just didn’t want to be a part of that.
And that ultra conservative view was exactly what?
Well, it was exactly the fact that, you know, if you were too left
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or if you were…it was a kind of - pro-armaments…the thing that worried me…this was before, of course…I wasn’t terribly happy about our involvement in sending our forces to Korea in the first place. But wherever, if you look at the position of Australia, we either got involved in Malaysia or, your know, in those days
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today they want to build bridges with some of the fascist elements of Indonesia. But in the early days they wanted to - they wanted to condemn Indonesia, in fact get Australia involved in fighting with the British Forces in Malaysia.
So the RSL was advocating these things?
Well, they were very pro that way.
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They have been - I mean in my view - the only person that’s ever held a position of prominence in the RSL in my post war years, that I respect, is Philips, Major General Philips. I think he’s a very fine man and I think he’s taken a lot of courage to move the RSL into a much broader position. I think that,
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even though I think that most Veterans are fairly good, you know, down to earth type of blokes, but the RSL as such, has been a kind of inbuilt conservative grain ever since I’ve known them.
Given all of this to what extent have you maintained contact with your mates from the war?
No I’ve never marched on Anzac Day. When I say I’ve never marched, I’ve
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always been to Dawn Services in my own electorate. And always did, right through that 31 years, but I never went into major marches on Anzac Day. Occasionally I would represent Calwell or one of the leaders on laying a wreath on the Cenotaph. But I stayed away from activities in the RSL.
Other people have spoken
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to us about wanting to attend Anzac Day activities or even just a Dawn Service or its equivalent to remember mates departed and to commemorate whatever it was that they fought for. Have you ever felt that yourself?
No, the only thing I always do is I always look at - I always look at the marchers on Anzac Day and when our blokes have gone past
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I give it away. But I always look and view our fellows, the 8th Division as a whole.
And?
In fact, I wish I could give an education to some of the announcers because they don’t really understand what the 8th Division was and suffered in World War II.
Do you ever dream about the war?
No, I don’t dream - early on I did.
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Early on I certainly had events but the one that I - the one thing that used to come back to me in the early hours of the morning was that story I told you about - about that bloke bashing me up with a bamboo pole and what have you.
We’ll just stop there briefly…
